tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post4540260139518112773..comments2024-03-27T12:53:39.298+01:00Comments on A view from the cycle path: Just how safe are Dutch cyclists and Dutch cycle paths ?David Hembrowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-10824751169803474862012-04-27T19:08:08.906+02:002012-04-27T19:08:08.906+02:00Come on, what's wrong with accidents? I can br...Come on, what's wrong with accidents? I can break my own nose by falling down in my garden, so when I fall off a bike I can break my arm. ANd I actually like seperated roads, because otherwise I would have to ride my bike next to cars who still drive well.. let's say.. min. 200% faster than I do. That's no fun, really it isn't. Still, I better like to actually bruise my (i don'Auroranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-58032006910166931492010-10-29T07:58:54.857+02:002010-10-29T07:58:54.857+02:00Taliesin: It's rather difficult to make a dire...Taliesin: It's rather difficult to make a direct comparison, as you'd have to look for large groups of cyclists disobeying the law and riding on the road. You don't find that here, as it is extremely rare that riding your bike on a road vs. on a cycle path would actually bring you any advantage at all.<br /><br />The comparisons made in an attempt to discredit cycle paths are on David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-79327001120220751002010-10-29T00:58:39.442+02:002010-10-29T00:58:39.442+02:00@Taliein: Intersection collisions are part of the ...@Taliein: Intersection collisions are part of the problem, don't forget that 80% of bicycle accidents don't involve a third party; car, pedestrian, cyclist or otherwise.<br /><br />In Holland and Denmark it is illegal to have an against flow bike lane, so the worst case scenario is 4x, not 11. There are no figures in the Wiki article for Holland, but really it doesn't particularly Euanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09033579459724944055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-79850380918191706042010-10-29T00:02:29.324+02:002010-10-29T00:02:29.324+02:00I realise that is rather late to comment, but was ...I realise that is rather late to comment, but was prompted by yet another cycle path bashing session on the CTC forum. Basically, VC proponents will claim that the Dutch are worse of than they would otherwise be because of the presence of segregated lanes which they are convinced bring a 3-11X greater risk at junctions vs on road cycling. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregated_cycle_facilities#Taliesinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04399506198451047847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-75056568114962378112010-05-24T09:24:56.783+02:002010-05-24T09:24:56.783+02:00The stats on the Fietsberaad show nothing useful a...The stats on the Fietsberaad show nothing useful at all. I commented there that what should be compared is the number of fatalities or hospitalisations, not "accidents".<br /><br />As for vehicular cycling, in Canada, to get anywhere/everywhere, you need to be a vehicular cyclist. While it is scary for most, and there are some serious accidents, if the speed differential is small(tOM Trottierhttp://SafeCycling.canoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-80690470354308033422010-05-23T15:17:52.829+02:002010-05-23T15:17:52.829+02:00David - living in the UK (Glasgow), and using my b...David - living in the UK (Glasgow), and using my bike as much as I can in a everyday, normal clothes and no helmet manner, I can only weep when I see the differences between cycle-friendly countries and here. Cycle lanes here are a joke and road traffic is too fast, especially in town/residential areas. Many cyclists "adapt" by becoming as fast and aggressive as cars, wearing lycra andAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-63967623530310859752010-05-23T13:05:39.380+02:002010-05-23T13:05:39.380+02:00The mind boggles... What braingymnastics must thes...The mind boggles... What braingymnastics must these people have performed to come to the 'conclusion' that bicyclepaths are less safe than vehicular biking?! And those statistics! I can't wrap my head around those. I mean, in this little country of ours, more people cycle more miles in any given year than Britain or Germany, or even the USA. Suppose during one year three Dutch Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-70657355123562963732010-05-22T19:10:21.113+02:002010-05-22T19:10:21.113+02:00A lot of people in the US, or at least LA, are und...A lot of people in the US, or at least LA, are under the impression the vehicular cycling is the way of the future and all safety issues will be addressed by slapping sharrows in every street.Severinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-23315032340832642352010-05-21T21:58:53.089+02:002010-05-21T21:58:53.089+02:00For the benefit of anyone following these comments...For the benefit of anyone following these comments, please see <a href="http://hembrow.blogspot.com/2010/05/german-cycle-paths-vs-dutch-cycle-paths.html" rel="nofollow">the video comparing Dutch and German cycle paths</a>.David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-86881113289494961692010-05-21T20:27:19.118+02:002010-05-21T20:27:19.118+02:00@Norma
that video shows why you need 3 wheels in t...@Norma<br />that video shows why you need 3 wheels in the winterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-41450763526817368282010-05-21T20:26:14.676+02:002010-05-21T20:26:14.676+02:00@David
Yeah, those blinking lights in Copenhagen i...@David<br />Yeah, those blinking lights in Copenhagen is not the right solution.<br /><br />But how do you make safe junction when you have a major road junction? the big road here has 3 lanes in each direction, it has 1 right turn lane and 2 left turn lanes. The other smaller road has 2 lanes in each direction, + 1 right turning lane. It is one of Copenhagens big junctions.<br /><br />And no, Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-58620064102057855362010-05-21T19:47:20.210+02:002010-05-21T19:47:20.210+02:00@Krakonos
just make this: "cars turning right...@Krakonos<br />just make this: "cars turning right tend to overlook bikes" a capital offence of you do it more than once, and if you hurt the bicyclists. Then pure darwinisme should remove those blind car drivers that can not see.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-70214404929823971502010-05-21T19:36:18.159+02:002010-05-21T19:36:18.159+02:00I'm also from Germany and a member of the ADFC...I'm also from Germany and a member of the ADFC.<br /><br />First: the position of the ADFC is <b>not</b> against cycle paths but on making these paths <b>mandatory</b> and banning cyclists from the street. A good cycle path will be used by cyclists voluntarily and does not have to be mandatory.<br /><br />The problem with cycle paths in Germany is that in most cities money is a scarce Michael Radziejnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-474744177370507722010-05-21T18:50:05.979+02:002010-05-21T18:50:05.979+02:00An often-overlooked point is the age of cyclists i...An often-overlooked point is the age of cyclists involved in accidents. I was looking at a PDF brochure by the Dutch Ministry of Transport a while ago that had detailed breakdowns of accidents (part of their yearly traffic safety press releases, I think) but I can't find it now, so I'm reproducing vaguely similar numbers from the SWOV database ( http://tinyurl.com/2vs9k4a ) even though Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-23105827917723010572010-05-21T18:46:21.613+02:002010-05-21T18:46:21.613+02:00There are bike paths and there are bike paths.
He...There are bike paths and there are bike paths.<br /><br />Here in Melbourne, Australia, the laughingly named Copenhagen lane on Swanston Street is a disaster. That's only surpassed by the two way separated path on Fitzroy Street which is an absolute menace.<br /><br />On road bike lanes do not work very well and, overall, cyclists are far better off riding vehicularly. That may change if Euanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09033579459724944055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-28958639282056608012010-05-21T18:24:55.180+02:002010-05-21T18:24:55.180+02:00If you closed a road to motorised traffic would it...If you closed a road to motorised traffic would it still be a road or would it become a cycle path. I am just thinking it would be the cheapest and quickest way around the problem. Put an end to the iron boxes of death and I will be more than happy to ride on any road.<br />Cheers, Mark GarrettAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-19818329606001885822010-05-21T17:47:56.259+02:002010-05-21T17:47:56.259+02:00I'm working on a film comparing German cycle p...I'm working on a film comparing German cycle paths with Dutch cycle paths. It will appear on this blog in a couple of days time.<br /><br />Krakonos: Denmark is not really the place to look to see good junction design. In fact, I've been considering using exactly the post you refer to as an example of bad design in Denmark. Relying on motorists seeing a few LEDs to prevent them from David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-17735263966228405562010-05-21T17:12:27.805+02:002010-05-21T17:12:27.805+02:00I find the Fietsberaad response a bit confusing, b...I find the Fietsberaad response a bit confusing, but they seem to be including any bicycle crash in their traffic statistics. If a cyclist requires medical treatment after falling, the incident gets counted. Here in Los Angeles, such an incident would probably be classified as a "sports injury."Brenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16391225482937602238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-26893727147408415892010-05-21T13:07:09.278+02:002010-05-21T13:07:09.278+02:00Thanks for this informative post. One of the main ...Thanks for this informative post. One of the main arguments in Germany against segregated bicycle infrastructure is that cars turning right tend to overlook bikes on these bike paths even though they are painted in red for example. And the statistics here in Germany seem to prove that, I think. <br />That this is actually a problem in countries like the Netherlands and Denmark too can be seen Krakonoshttp://ritzelblog.wordpress.denoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-77156511239226490422010-05-21T12:19:12.967+02:002010-05-21T12:19:12.967+02:00Part of the problem with the different conclusions...Part of the problem with the different conclusions (certainly for UK) is that with any separation there will be areas of interaction, junctions, and it is the handling of junctions that is critical to how well a scheme works. <br /><br />i.e. just taking cyclists away from cars for the straight bits but making a mess of where they cross other vehicles will never make cyclists safer. (it's Neilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11443493823465136241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-52874484123189609442010-05-21T12:12:26.506+02:002010-05-21T12:12:26.506+02:00What complete b*ll*cks! There's no way I feel ...What complete b*ll*cks! There's no way I feel safer cycling alongside cars than I do on the cycle paths round here. Where oh where do these strange people get their ridiculous ideas from?Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16112462990202280587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-70079467622509562482010-05-21T10:21:27.761+02:002010-05-21T10:21:27.761+02:00Here`s a good exemple from this winter of getting ...Here`s a good exemple from this winter of getting hurt on a seperate bicycle path:<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqo4hwnJt6Y<br />Can you imagine the consequences if this would have happened on an open road? People cycle in all kinds of weather conditions around here and take nasty falls. Fortunately, because of the bike paths, here are no cars around when this happens.Normahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08372396257282214362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-13215114098466278312010-05-21T02:08:09.626+02:002010-05-21T02:08:09.626+02:00I commented on the Fietsberaad site and said that ...I commented on the Fietsberaad site and said that Vehicular Cycling is not Safe only the Segregated Cycle Paths like they have in the Netherlands is, and in Ireland we consider it best Practice to have our Infrastructure like theirs.<br /><br /> We the Cycling Community are asking for this but it is a struggle to have this Implemented. Any sort of improvements are hard fought for with massive l' homme au velohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964877237998191937noreply@blogger.com