tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post1163469963193155717..comments2024-03-27T12:53:39.298+01:00Comments on A view from the cycle path: Unravelling of modesDavid Hembrowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-74225046070957007442013-01-10T17:46:17.018+01:002013-01-10T17:46:17.018+01:00Although an old post, I felt the obligation to com...Although an old post, I felt the obligation to comment on Ians point. As a Dutch cyclist for both transportation and recreation (fast cycling) I do feel that these types of cycling sometimes hinder each other. Fast cyclists therefore sometimes end up on the road with cars, even though they're not allowed to. But this is only a problem in a very few places, where separate cycling lanes are tooJochemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15748928237797643731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-61114304512594186682012-09-05T13:59:52.872+02:002012-09-05T13:59:52.872+02:00It's amusing to read these arguments going bac...It's amusing to read these arguments going back and forth. Cycling is just a mode of transport in the Netherlands, although in most cases a very pleasant one and less stressful compared to driving.<br />As a Dutch cyclist you just want to get from A to B and a cycle path ensure a safe way to do that. The large number of cycle paths ensures that you can always find a series of paths that leadsThe3oLandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10602138216027997337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-43125072576789459792012-07-19T01:54:35.360+02:002012-07-19T01:54:35.360+02:00Part of the problem reflected in this debate is th...Part of the problem reflected in this debate is that the United States has not and...now that we are increasingly poor and bankrupt (trillion dollar wars will do that to one) will not invest in significant bicycling infrastructure. It's an afterthought, a trivial part of the infrastructure. And...efforts to build more are hysterically derided by an increasingly aging and delusional Brian Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-74630328361293536182012-07-10T00:57:48.523+02:002012-07-10T00:57:48.523+02:00Dutchman checking in here, nearly falling from my ...Dutchman checking in here, nearly falling from my chair laughing at Ian Brett Cooper's comments. <br />His comment that cycle paths are "slow, too narrow, the surface is often of poorer quality" is not an accurate description of reality, but it does have a lot of comedic value.<br /><br />I'm quite amazed at some foreigner's insistence on "the right to ride on the road&PeterKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-11252665970907395282012-07-07T07:58:53.239+02:002012-07-07T07:58:53.239+02:00Ian,
If you think riding on the streets are safe,...Ian,<br /><br />If you think riding on the streets are safe, why the heck that you only see young and middle-aged men riding. On cycle paths, you see anyone from 8 to 80 and not wearing a helmet. Let me ask you this, why are you wearing a helmet if you think the riding on street is safe?ubringlitenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10076909901589166013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-39623368045205055292012-07-06T04:42:08.096+02:002012-07-06T04:42:08.096+02:00Here we have a British example of what happens whe...<a href="http://www.cbrd.co.uk/histories/pedestriancrossings/5.shtml" rel="nofollow">Here we have a British example of what happens when you are legally required to use certain facilities, except this time it is pedestrians who lose what is in these examples a very hypothetical right to the road, due to the volume of traffic in these locations.</a> What happens is that the scheme is abandoned christhebullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18058394246399615754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-77692270336353727672012-07-05T19:19:22.267+02:002012-07-05T19:19:22.267+02:00When I read Ian's blog it seems to me that wha...When I read Ian's blog it seems to me that what irks him most about Dutch bike paths is the perceived lack of freedom to ride anywhere. This is typical motorist's thinking: the road should be free for use by anyone. We simply don't see why. Dutch roads with allowed speeds over 70 km/h are closed to bicycles. On the other hand, there is always a cycle path nearby which usually providesFrits Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-14303135054592190742012-07-05T13:59:24.728+02:002012-07-05T13:59:24.728+02:00Ian, according to your online information about yo...Ian, according to your online information about yourself, you cycled through Western Europe "between 1984 and 1986".<br /><br />Has it occurred to you that due to the level of maintenance and upgrading that is normal in this country, the infrastructure you saw then, which fills your fading memory and which you think gives you an understanding will in many cases have been replaced three David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-10081346112416138322012-07-05T13:48:25.428+02:002012-07-05T13:48:25.428+02:00Alexa, what you say has an element of truth, but i...Alexa, what you say has an element of truth, but it's not the whole story.<br /><br />While they are outnumbered by many people who are not interested in sporty riding, the Netherlands has a higher proportion of people who do the athletic type of cycling than other countries.<br /><br />Whole peletons of racers ride on the cycle-paths here. These are not just amateurs but also pros. Members David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-9921182117142345432012-07-05T13:45:34.090+02:002012-07-05T13:45:34.090+02:00Alexa, although your characterization of American ...Alexa, although your characterization of American cycling is probably accurate to a great degree, I am not an athlete or a risk-taker. Nor am I American (I'm English, although I do now live in the US). I never dress up in special clothes to cycle and I cycle almost every day, as I have done for over 30 years.Ian Brett Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11144195897514392433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-85141466909675006172012-07-05T13:41:04.521+02:002012-07-05T13:41:04.521+02:00I have never lived in the Netherlands, but I did s...I have never lived in the Netherlands, but I did spend a month travelling through the Netherlands. You don't need to live in a place to get a sense of its bicycle infrastructure - all you need to do is use it - and I have.<br /><br />As for the idea that I think all bicycle facilities are mandatory, this is a straw man. I specifically said that some bicycle facilities are optional. My point Ian Brett Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11144195897514392433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-43617674617273885352012-07-05T13:35:09.723+02:002012-07-05T13:35:09.723+02:00Expecting to be able to ride at top speed on the c...Expecting to be able to ride at top speed on the cycle paths of the Netherlands is like expecting to do uneven parallel bars routines on the playground. The facilities were simply built for the use of the majority. Unfortunately, in the US the majority is trapped in their cars.<br /><br />I think the conflict between Ian and David stems from 2 different views of what a "cyclist" is. To Alexahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09121866982550410238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-70672041771056099472012-07-05T13:15:47.064+02:002012-07-05T13:15:47.064+02:00Ian, It is quite clear that you have never lived h...Ian, It is quite clear that you have never lived here and simply don't know what you're talking about.<br /><br />For a start, not all bike paths are mandatory. It depends on the signage (round vs. rectangular signs).<br /><br />While people like yourself, who speak only English, use only English language references and are viewing from a few thousand miles away, might imagine that you David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-86233774127975930542012-07-05T12:45:59.325+02:002012-07-05T12:45:59.325+02:00"I have to say, Ian, that for Dutch people th..."I have to say, Ian, that for Dutch people this question is absurd in 97% of cases or more. Why would you ever want to? It would be unsafe, noisy, strssful and often slower. "<br /><br />I've always enjoyed cycling on the road. For me, bike paths are more stressful than the road - they are slow, too narrow, the surface is often of poorer quality. The idea that the road is more Ian Brett Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11144195897514392433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-18609023834962057482012-07-05T12:39:52.961+02:002012-07-05T12:39:52.961+02:00Yeah, it's a loaded question, because advocate...Yeah, it's a loaded question, because advocates of Dutch bike culture refuse to admit that there's a problem here. And I do have an agenda here - to point out that someone is hiding the truth about Dutch bike facilities. Why is it that no Dutch cycling advocate ever seems to find it convenient to mention that marked bike paths are mandatory use in the Netherlands? You say they aren't Ian Brett Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11144195897514392433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-68166904432965094602012-07-05T09:39:32.490+02:002012-07-05T09:39:32.490+02:00David: you forgot to mention that most cycle pats ...David: you forgot to mention that most cycle pats in the Netherlands are mandatory for cyclists under 75 cms wide (so not always for your Mango, I guess)but I have to say, Ian, that for Dutch people this question is absurd in 97% of cases or more. Why would you ever want to? It would be unsafe, noisy, strssful and often slower. <br /><br />Alright, in a mionority of cases older cyclepaths can be Koennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-35730699849456512472012-07-05T08:41:32.314+02:002012-07-05T08:41:32.314+02:00Ian: You pose a loaded question and clearly have a...Ian: You pose a loaded question and clearly have an agenda.<br /><br />The answer is yes. You can use almost all roads which are not snelwegen or autowegen.<br /><br />However, there is another related question: Why would you want to ?<br /><br />Cycle-path widths are <a href="http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/search/label/width" rel="nofollow">greater than you think</a>. In our area, a David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-10009733597972415002012-07-05T02:36:55.496+02:002012-07-05T02:36:55.496+02:00What happens if you don't want to use those na...What happens if you don't want to use those narrow bike paths? What if you want the extra width that the road offers? Are all roads in the Netherlands (apart from high speed motorways) open to cyclists?Ian Brett Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11144195897514392433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-10841949338587818842012-07-03T17:23:47.831+02:002012-07-03T17:23:47.831+02:00There is only one type of cyclist who has a proble...There is only one type of cyclist who has a problem with such infrastructure: the long distance cyclist. When you are a local resident, you know all the cycle routes in your own town, but for a tourist travelling from one town to another it can be troublesome to find a good route when this unravelling of modes takes place. That's why it's so great to have the Routeplanner from the Harry Liebenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03197119763898555397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-76557181308980311432012-07-02T19:02:00.184+02:002012-07-02T19:02:00.184+02:00Have you thought about submitting this as a paper ...Have you thought about submitting this as a paper to the Transportation Research Board for a paper, poster or hosted presentation (for TRB 2013)?Matt Kronebergernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-88052379443650819742012-07-02T15:33:40.842+02:002012-07-02T15:33:40.842+02:00Dear Koen,
The mess you describe is the UK.Dear Koen,<br /><br />The mess you describe is the UK.CiarĂ¡nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13728909583171184287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-30499526758138063352012-07-02T09:20:09.146+02:002012-07-02T09:20:09.146+02:00.... and to pick up on my previous comment: and wh....... and to pick up on my previous comment: and what a huge amount of time, fuel and money is wasted when parents have to act as chauffeurs to their children! I know of a boy with Down's syndrom who rides his own magnificent recumbent trike to school, some 5kms off. He really looks happy cycling. Of course it is safe for him to do so: the paths are separated, the route is unobstructed, and Koennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-65169746240679378482012-07-02T01:00:32.799+02:002012-07-02T01:00:32.799+02:00As both a cyclist and a driver, like many adults i...As both a cyclist and a driver, like many adults in the Netherlands, I have to say that I much prefer driving without the risk of hitting a cyclist. Driving in the Netherlands is often a lot quiter because lots of ccyclists mean a lot less car movements. <br /><br />My son woke up too late for a school exam last week, so for just once I threw his bike in the car boot and drove him there. I hated Koennoreply@blogger.com