tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post876597258149946215..comments2024-02-24T06:21:30.987+01:00Comments on A view from the cycle path: The "Copenhagen Left" and merging of cyclists with cars turning right: Dangerous and inconvenient junction design in Denmark.David Hembrowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-5678614606072918342013-12-05T23:23:06.613+01:002013-12-05T23:23:06.613+01:00Andrew: I think the junction you're referring ...Andrew: I think the junction you're referring to is <a href="http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2013/08/tfls-terrible-two-stage-right-turn.html#southampton" rel="nofollow">one that I wrote a little about this year in a blog post</a>. It's really rather sad that Southampton is claiming so much for something so very poor.<br /><br />In any case, if the city wants to attract cyclists, it David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-62705548514067216872013-12-05T21:51:25.373+01:002013-12-05T21:51:25.373+01:00Three years on and apparently Southampton Council ...Three years on and apparently Southampton Council are trumpeting one of these junctions as the very latest thing, pioneering, even - and something which will attract cyclists.<br /><br />http://www.nce.co.uk/news/transport/pioneering-new-junction-gives-a-boost-to-cycle-safety/8656417.article?blocktitle=News-In-depth&contentID=1072Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06558597827729171101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-18707053571111963832010-07-16T21:39:19.683+02:002010-07-16T21:39:19.683+02:00@Stefan Warda
There are also places in Copenhagen ...@Stefan Warda<br />There are also places in Copenhagen where you have to press a button to get over, but they are rare. I have found 3, and they are all where a recreational bicycle path crosses a major road.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-23979738658596611562010-07-14T19:26:13.296+02:002010-07-14T19:26:13.296+02:00Stefan: There are 5000 km of on road cycle lane an...Stefan: There are 5000 km of on road cycle lane and 27000 km of segregated cycle path in the Netherlands. That's about a quarter the length of segregated path as the length of the roads in the country. Not all of it was built yesterday. As a result, it is not really all that difficult to find examples of old provision which do not meet current standards.<br /><br />This is particularly true David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-36834672512183225132010-07-14T16:27:23.912+02:002010-07-14T16:27:23.912+02:00David: Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't ...David: Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't know.annahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14989947994626570874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-18934786225092844062010-07-14T09:53:48.227+02:002010-07-14T09:53:48.227+02:00@jonbendtsen
Here a place in Amsterdam where cycl...@jonbendtsen<br /><br />Here a place in Amsterdam where cyclists always have a red light if they do not use the push-button:<br /><br />http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Haarlemmerplein,+Amsterdam,+Noord-Holland,+The+Netherlands&sll=51.918926,4.463163&sspn=0.002991,0.010568&g=Rotterdam,+South+Holland,+The+Netherlands&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=hamburgize.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00203988332347924137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-42607610408365953602010-07-14T09:45:34.919+02:002010-07-14T09:45:34.919+02:00@jonbendtsen
Here an example from Amsterdam, wher...@jonbendtsen<br /><br />Here an example from Amsterdam, where cyclists block each others path:<br /><br />http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Haarlemmerplein,+Amsterdam,+Noord-Holland,+The+Netherlands&sll=51.918926,4.463163&sspn=0.002991,0.010568&g=Rotterdam,+South+Holland,+The+Netherlands&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FWxUHwMdhIRKAA&split=0&hq=hamburgize.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00203988332347924137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-3568464914011189862010-07-14T01:02:03.550+02:002010-07-14T01:02:03.550+02:00How about this one in Rotterdam? Have a pan around...How about <a href="http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=rotterdam&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=14.641113,39.506836&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Rotterdam,+South+Holland,+The+Netherlands&ll=51.918835,4.463142&spn=0.003587,0.009645&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=51.918926,4.463163&panoid=nkLqb2jw5RKWUcGLQj0fQw&cbp=12,85.99,,Matt Nicholasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-33358258565132808502010-07-13T10:16:16.145+02:002010-07-13T10:16:16.145+02:00There's a very simple reason why countries do ...There's a very simple reason why countries do not choose to copy the Dutch style of bike infrastructure - political opposition by motorists. Building Dutch-style cycle infrastructure would have a serious negative impact on motorists <i>in the short-term</i>, and that's enough to kill it in countries with lower levels of cycling than the Netherlands.Adriannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-80232672709929736642010-07-12T15:11:57.582+02:002010-07-12T15:11:57.582+02:00@Stefan Warda:
There can be left turning problems ...@Stefan Warda:<br />There can be left turning problems if there are so many bicyclists that those turning left blocks those going straight. A good example of this is http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Dronning+Louises+Bro,+K%C3%B8benhavn,+Danmark&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=55.192325,67.5&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Dronning+Louises+Bro,+1360,+K%Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-23355125915117968092010-07-12T14:39:12.055+02:002010-07-12T14:39:12.055+02:00> nobody complains about them running red light...> nobody complains about them running red lights<br /><br />That's because in the UK red lights do not apply to pedestrians. Traffic lights are to control traffic and do not apply to pedestrians. Pedestrian lights are only advise for pedestrians, to let them know when the traffic has been stopped.Neilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11443493823465136241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-6100306549076127402010-07-12T13:00:08.866+02:002010-07-12T13:00:08.866+02:00townmouse: I think there is something in the idea ...townmouse: I think there is something in the idea of cyclists getting together with pedestrian groups in the UK. However, you have to be careful. More low quality "shared use" is not what the UK needs.<br /><br />Jean-Christophe: I do know what you mean, after all I came from Britain, where <a href="http://hembrow.blogspot.com/search/label/britain" rel="nofollow">almost anything is David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-25234524801274806962010-07-12T12:51:35.675+02:002010-07-12T12:51:35.675+02:00Since more than ten years I visit Copenhagen sever...Since more than ten years I visit Copenhagen several times a year and I am very familiar with the infrastructure for cyclists in the Danish capital. <br /><br />I donĀ“t see a big disadvantage to turn left indirectly like in Copenhagen. In general the rules for cyclists are very easy in Copenhagen. If there are cycle tracks ore cycle lanes they are always on both sides and cyclists have to use hamburgize.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00203988332347924137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-54888716024379439022010-07-12T12:33:21.000+02:002010-07-12T12:33:21.000+02:00I do agree with your view.
But, you should underst...I do agree with your view.<br />But, you should understand that for some of us, even the not-so-well-thought Danish cycling infrastructure, or even the German one is light-year in advance compare to our local one!<br />You should pass by Toulouse, France and see how unfortunate we are down here! Although in 9 years things have vastly improved.<br />It's all a matter of perspective :-)Jean-Christophehttp://www.magical-world.eunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-5322026137055669232010-07-12T11:42:31.787+02:002010-07-12T11:42:31.787+02:00Anonymous: Thanks for your post. Nice to see an ex...Anonymous: Thanks for your post. Nice to see an exception.<br /><br />As you say, the Maliebaan is somewhat special. It's the site of <a href="http://hembrow.blogspot.com/2009/05/first-cycle-path-in-netherlands.html" rel="nofollow">the first cycle path in the Netherlands</a> dating back to 1885.<br /><br />Not all high traffic intersections require you to cross twice <a href="http://David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-36347769318041210572010-07-12T11:37:34.402+02:002010-07-12T11:37:34.402+02:00It's interesting about the lights sometimes be...It's interesting about the lights sometimes being green in all directions for cyclists and red for cars. You can't imagine such a thing for bikes here but similar setups are cropping up all over the UK for pedestrian crossings (Glasgow has a lot of these) where they can cross a junction diagonally in one go rather than having to wait for two cycles of lights (whereas in other parts of thetownmousehttp://cityexile.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-27690869244212875002010-07-12T11:34:30.664+02:002010-07-12T11:34:30.664+02:00I've seen that kind of arrangement in the Neth...I've seen that kind of arrangement in the Netherlands exactly once: at the Nagtegaalstraat/Maliebaan junction in Utrecht, complete with non-standard sign outlining the route, see <a href="http://tinyurl.com/388x5uc" rel="nofollow">Google Street View</a>. <br /><br />It's a bit awkward, but the left turn in question is a low-traffic manoeuvre and Maliebaan is such a landmark street that itAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-48623239082828611462010-07-12T10:43:02.880+02:002010-07-12T10:43:02.880+02:00Anthony: In this case I don't think it has any...Anthony: In this case I don't think it has anything to do with copyright. And frankly, if, say, British councils were somehow forced to employ Dutch contractors they would <a href="http://hembrow.blogspot.com/2009/11/costings-of-improvements-for-cyclists.html" rel="nofollow">save a fortune</a> given the quality built at a price here.<br /><br />Anna: Mikael says that <a href="http://David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-53813134376035695882010-07-12T10:13:59.462+02:002010-07-12T10:13:59.462+02:00Similar here in Vienna. Indirect left turns for cy...Similar here in Vienna. Indirect left turns for cyclists and pedestrians. Most of the time there is not even enough space to wait, and one ends up blocking cyclists that want to go straight on..<br /><br />However, I suppose it's not so bad in Denmark, as there are generally more cyclists on the road than in Austria. The view to the cycle path is not obstructed either. So probably not that annahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14989947994626570874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-28794987067790405742010-07-12T08:52:29.377+02:002010-07-12T08:52:29.377+02:00you know, when people are not following good examp...you know, when people are not following good examples, there is an underlying unstated reason. the only one i can think of to prevent other countries following the netherlands is that it is copyright. is it? don't laugh. a lot of these things are tendered to private designers, and they will copyright their efforts.anthonyhttp://wwwcreatingmylife.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-65812447378417074322010-07-12T07:09:52.693+02:002010-07-12T07:09:52.693+02:00I find it surprising that many countries feel the ...I find it surprising that many countries feel the need to 're-invent the wheel' when it comes to infrastructure for cyclists - I'm not aiming this at Denmark particularly but it appears they're doing something here that has been tried and rejected elsewhere as 'sub-optimal'.<br /><br />The result of this is sub-standard separated infrastructure <i>and</i> sub-standard Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-46979976620557736902010-07-12T04:10:35.950+02:002010-07-12T04:10:35.950+02:00Its interesting to see that places in NYC are adop...Its interesting to see that places in NYC are adopting this "mixing zone" that it seems some Danish planners think "first class" I have seen this idea talked about multiple times and it does not make me comfortable. Yes designating this area is better than what we have in most of the country, but I think places are striving for the wrong thing by holding the second best John in NHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07124328678630889953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-91313504080876293492010-07-12T03:57:04.710+02:002010-07-12T03:57:04.710+02:00When you are performing a left turn as described i...When you are performing a left turn as described in the first illustration and you are waiting in the left turn waiting area you can legally cross the road for red if there are no vehicles coming from or towards the direction you just came from. The problem with this is that in heavily used junctions there will always be traffic so you end up waiting for green anyway.<br /><br />If it is smaller Sirius7dkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08688465574306782024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-58142983506581003082010-07-12T00:31:08.434+02:002010-07-12T00:31:08.434+02:00I believe the left turning manouvre described is k...I believe the left turning manouvre described is known as a "hook turn", and is the standard manouvre on motorbikes in Taiwan. I can see its use where a left turn would normally be prohibited (or a right turn in the UK) . Having said that, having the cycle lane turn into a right turn lane means that not only do you either have to sit behind or filter past turning vehicles, (ideally on christhebullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18058394246399615754noreply@blogger.com