tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post507791821326866181..comments2024-02-24T06:21:30.987+01:00Comments on A view from the cycle path: State of the Art Bikeway Design, or is it?David Hembrowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-37039424945637226722011-10-16T21:03:27.461+02:002011-10-16T21:03:27.461+02:00Your blog is very interesting. I've seen your ...Your blog is very interesting. I've seen your video can high interest. I participate of a group in Brazil that is discussing and making divulgation of bicycle for transportation, focussing on developpment of cycle lanes...<br /><br />Emmanuel M. Favre-Nicolin<br />Blog Vitória Sustentável<br />http://vitoria-sustentavel.blogspot.comManouchkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03638588785921670103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-38016008117674963372011-08-30T18:47:57.842+02:002011-08-30T18:47:57.842+02:00Anonymous: I've seen this sort of stuff before...Anonymous: I've seen this sort of stuff before. It really depends what you measure. <a href="http://hembrow.blogspot.com/search/label/adfc" rel="nofollow">German cycle paths are not remotely the same as Dutch cycle paths</a>.David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-76669259702753586522011-08-30T15:29:26.747+02:002011-08-30T15:29:26.747+02:00A research report, on which German "NACTO&quo...A research report, on which German "NACTO" is based(Empfehlungen für Radverkehrsnanlagen, from 1995, new in 2010), is: Schnuell, R.; Alrutz, D. et al.: Sicherung des Radverkehrs an staedtischen Knotenpunkten; Forschungsberichte der Bundesanstalt für Straßenwesen, Heft 262; Bergisch Gladbach 1992; German short version in http://www.nationaler-radverkehrsplan.de/eu-bund-laender/eu/brr/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-68836977611069457002011-04-13T03:41:07.812+02:002011-04-13T03:41:07.812+02:00I agree with you Peter, overall I do, I understand...I agree with you Peter, overall I do, I understand your corrections on CROW vs. NACTO, but in a way that is not the point. The point is, why are we not taking what has been proven to work time and time again, taking that and adapting the best we possibly can. We are we taking 20 year old designs and calling them good, why? Are we afraid to work for the best? Are we afraid to show what is the John in NHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07124328678630889953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-9314288905411581832011-04-11T17:59:01.016+02:002011-04-11T17:59:01.016+02:00@ Kevin and others: Rather than trash the new NAC...@ Kevin and others: Rather than trash the new NACTO guide, try a positive attitude for a minute -- be glad that Americans have produced a guidebook recommending European designs that until now had been frowned upon or outlawed in other American guides. If you take the attitude that this might be written by your friends, people who have the same objective as you, you might see more agreement withUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10393591667224886268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-76338060127885807322011-04-11T05:57:58.284+02:002011-04-11T05:57:58.284+02:00David and Mark, that is wonderful! I really like ...David and Mark, that is wonderful! I really like the way you all put that design together showing what we could be doing. The big deal is turning lorries (trucks) those making a right turn at the intersection. The current standards in intersection design are set for the largest expected vehicle (I am pretty sure…), banning them in certain areas can be effective though. <br />If you made the John in NHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07124328678630889953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-69344124897423002202011-04-09T07:51:07.208+02:002011-04-09T07:51:07.208+02:00Neil: I've been "doored" in Britain ...Neil: I've been "doored" in Britain after I was squeezed by a car on one side and then someone else opened their door. I know exactly what it's like.<br /><br />However, what you see here is not the same. "Dooring" is not a common concern of Dutch cyclists. The combination of facilities which generally keep you clear of car doors, and drivers looking before they open David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-39109385026741067342011-04-09T00:17:01.963+02:002011-04-09T00:17:01.963+02:00The centre of Amsterdam is indeed not the best pla...The centre of Amsterdam is indeed not the best place to look for good cycle infrastructure. In fact it is seldom a pleasant place to cycle, because of the volume of traffic relative to the width of the streets. There are no alternative cycle routes of the kind David suggests, because there is no room.<br /><br />But that raises the question: if the high-quality Dutch cycle infrastructure is not Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-18333121123692979932011-04-08T18:12:00.022+02:002011-04-08T18:12:00.022+02:00Though of course as we saw in the recent video of ...Though of course as we saw in the recent video of the secondary route, they can have quite a lot of door zone bike lanes.Neilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11443493823465136241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-54680939000884181452011-04-08T12:42:17.086+02:002011-04-08T12:42:17.086+02:00What a horrible standard!!
Among other things, it...What a horrible standard!!<br /><br />Among other things, it endorses door zone bike lanes. Yes, road design where the most dangerous place on the entire road to ride a bicycle is in the bike lane.<br /><br />“When placed adjacent to parking, a solid white line marking of four inch width should be used between the parking lane and the bike lane to minimise encroachment of parked cars into the Kevin Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13186428862833389619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-29721136948345331152011-04-08T12:37:46.102+02:002011-04-08T12:37:46.102+02:00Bike boxes are not very often seen because bike bo...Bike boxes are not very often seen because bike boxes only work in combination with bike lanes, not with separated bike tracks. The Netherlands has far more bike tracks than bike lanes. They only appear in minor streets and when there is no more than one car lane, with an extra turning lane at most. Bike boxes do have an 1980s feel to them. You will never see them on junctions in major roads Mark W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07882028603632115187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-73540821177250739782011-04-08T12:25:05.619+02:002011-04-08T12:25:05.619+02:00@anonymous. That is a picture of Rokin in Amsterda...@anonymous. That is a picture of Rokin in Amsterdam. That is indeed very bad design. This part of the street has been like that for at least 40 years. No cycle lane at all. So that has little to do with the discussion here, in which we discuss that it is a bad idea to have a cycle lane in the middle of car lanes and sell it as good modern design. <br /><br />Rokin has been a working area for Mark W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07882028603632115187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-31044587802649333742011-04-08T08:25:56.617+02:002011-04-08T08:25:56.617+02:00I'd like to see something like this done in a ...I'd like to see something like this done in a few intersections here in Vancouver. We're starting to get some very good infrastructure now but a few of the intersections need some work and rethinking.<br />We have some of these same kind of intersections where the painted bike lane moves over left and cars move right to turn. It's kind of scary.<br /><br />On the one separated lane Clarknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-67825542681346972872011-04-08T07:13:53.597+02:002011-04-08T07:13:53.597+02:00Anonymous: What that is is another example of what...Anonymous: What that is is another example of what is not "state of the art bikeway design". The Netherlands is not perfect, and the centre of Amsterdam really isn't the best place to look to find the best infrastructure.<br /><br />However, though I rarely cycle in Amsterdam and don't know this area, I suspect this also isn't quite what it looks. To me, it has the David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-24310227453087748672011-04-08T03:52:41.130+02:002011-04-08T03:52:41.130+02:00What about bike boxes? Do you find these anywhere ...What about bike boxes? Do you find these anywhere in the Netherlands? I ask because they are also promoted in the US as state of the art Dutch bicycle infrastructure. (perhaps they got this idea from the Crow design book as well)<br /><br />http://bikeportland.org/cats/infrastructure/bike-boxes<br /><br />http://www.streetfilms.org/how-to-use-a-bike-box/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-13865887012515944622011-04-07T22:48:09.378+02:002011-04-07T22:48:09.378+02:00Mark: what is this then?
http://maps.google.co.uk...Mark: what is this then?<br /><br />http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=52.372255,4.89295&spn=0.001094,0.003549&z=19&layer=c&cbll=52.372332,4.892957&panoid=DOFYTcYJbZJLSMsci7KjcQ&cbp=12,14.62,,0,20.48<br /><br />No cycle lanes at all, cyclists turning left must wait in between vehicle lanes - between the bus and the taxi on the Google image. This is Dam Square in Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-6353877332210811932011-04-07T22:06:19.209+02:002011-04-07T22:06:19.209+02:00Peter: the type of two stage left turn which we bo...Peter: the type of two stage left turn which we both criticize requires cyclists to position themselves in front of other traffic which is waiting to cross their path.<br /><br />We also criticize the very idea of placing cyclists on the right hand side of right turning vehicles. This doesn't happen with the Dutch example because in nearly all cases the traffic lights are synchronized in suchDavid Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-64558916876732184692011-04-07T21:40:48.372+02:002011-04-07T21:40:48.372+02:00Mark, what a great video. I love the way it relate...Mark, what a great video. I love the way it relates the Dutch intersection design to the American. I'm a professor in transportation engineering and will recommend that all my students watch it.<br /><br />I'm sure that the NACTO guide authors did not mean to recommended that cycletracks turn into bike lanes on intersection approaches, because New York City, one of the members Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10393591667224886268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-18900151841801984432011-04-07T17:59:55.723+02:002011-04-07T17:59:55.723+02:00@kevjs1982 that is not bad at all, in fact the Dut...@kevjs1982 that is not bad at all, in fact the Dutch have started building roundabouts everywhere recently, but with a cycle path all around it on which cyclists have priority over all motorised traffic. Believed to be even safer than this junction. It is just as amazing to see a junction being transformed into a roundabout on a space that you would never believe to be big enough.<br /><br />As Mark W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07882028603632115187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-81466669206707175562011-04-07T13:20:52.398+02:002011-04-07T13:20:52.398+02:00Following British BEST practice might not be too b...Following British BEST practice might not be too bad, of course being the UK we can't just have a cross roads it needs to be a roundabout - but I use this one on a regular basis <a href="http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Meadows+Way,+Nottingham&aq=&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=14.619467,46.538086&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Meadows+WayKevjs1982https://www.blogger.com/profile/04760584153907095065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-27163129784739188362011-04-07T12:19:58.657+02:002011-04-07T12:19:58.657+02:00Thank you so much for this video. It really does s...Thank you so much for this video. It really does show how easily it can be done well. The tragic thing is that authorities in the English-speaking world will still congratulate themselves on NACTO style infrastructure.Edwardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-35242225530294000432011-04-07T10:40:01.373+02:002011-04-07T10:40:01.373+02:00Excellent video animation, so clear and simply exp...Excellent video animation, so clear and simply expressed. This should be compulsory viewing for all town planners.<br /><br />We have these queueing boxes here in Bordeaux, along the inner ring road amongst other places and they are dangerous. Not only do the motorists cut across the cycle path without seeing you, they start to pull into the cycle path <b>before</b> the turn, especially when Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07887165073932703907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-45492003227242706382011-04-07T09:24:45.468+02:002011-04-07T09:24:45.468+02:00jep,
really there are two different systems of lef...jep,<br />really there are two different systems of left turns. The first you mention - and which NACTO copied - was the German one, and meanwhile it's not applied anymore. <br />As a German living abroad I realise that in many countries they tend to copy ideas from Germany, specially because it's so well formalised...<br />And finally the Dutch started very late to offer information in Frankashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18370503893250145325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-90093965167943440832011-04-07T07:34:01.554+02:002011-04-07T07:34:01.554+02:00I left them this message and am curious what they&...I left them this message and am curious what they'll say.<br /><br />Hi! I'm a big fan of your work since Day 1 (and have been following you on Facebook since your establishment).<br /><br />As someone who has lived and biked in Holland extensively, I wanted to call out a question raised by David Hembrow on his blog that you say:<br /><br />"typical international best practice is a Eli Goldbergnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-35708542749496147872011-04-07T05:51:09.831+02:002011-04-07T05:51:09.831+02:00Excellent post, Mark, and a fabulous animation sho...Excellent post, Mark, and a fabulous animation showing how it can so easily be done... with the right people in control.Paul Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16828401001732920598noreply@blogger.com