tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post4953662880531726837..comments2024-02-24T06:21:30.987+01:00Comments on A view from the cycle path: Petrol price vs. cycling rate for a range of countriesDavid Hembrowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-63354746469959618272011-02-10T22:32:02.551+01:002011-02-10T22:32:02.551+01:00I am reasonably convinced that the graph in the po...I am reasonably convinced that the graph in the post supports the point you are making -ie high petrol prices do not in themselves explain the variation in cycling rates across countries.<br /><br />What some of the commentators seem to have take from this however is that changes in petrol prices have no impact on the level of driving and the level of cycling. This flies in the face of decades ofGareth Denthttp://www.combingmyhair.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-85568288244363043342011-02-08T04:44:36.278+01:002011-02-08T04:44:36.278+01:00I live in Toronto, Canada. I cycled to work and ba...I live in Toronto, Canada. I cycled to work and back today. It was about -5C and very slushy. Even with a fender, the slush sprayed all up the back of my coat. My pant legs were soaked and dirty within a few minutes. My face was uncomfortably cold despite wrapping a scarf around it.<br /><br />I can live with this degree of discomfort and inconvenience because I really like to ride my bike. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-44170847363538095452011-02-03T19:32:22.681+01:002011-02-03T19:32:22.681+01:00""Well, you were hit by a car." At ...""Well, you were hit by a car." At that point my momentum is lost."<br /><br />And people in cars never get hurt, or . . .something.<br /><br />You need to put a little more mass in your arguments.kfgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-88536135000282499042011-02-03T19:21:14.961+01:002011-02-03T19:21:14.961+01:00I live in Holland. Personally I think the governme...I live in Holland. Personally I think the government was following a (growing) tendency to cycle; a tradition. 25 years ago, when I was at highschool, everybody of my class cycled to school. Rain, distance, cold, it didnt matter, we all cycled. Often together. Some had to cycle over 15 kilometers to school, so 30 a day. If you let you parents bring you with the car, you where called a whimp. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-39750469449286484852011-02-03T07:33:36.756+01:002011-02-03T07:33:36.756+01:00@Thor:
Several points you bring up seem to have b...@Thor:<br /><br />Several points you bring up seem to have been addressed recently in a <a href="http://muenchenierung.blogspot.com/2011/01/challenging-1-dimensional-view-on.html" rel="nofollow">German study</a>, which concluded that governments needed to foster bicycle culture along with infrastructure. I guess one could call this the 'peer pressure' factor.<br /><br />I agree with many Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-27606528264716730402011-02-03T06:25:37.528+01:002011-02-03T06:25:37.528+01:00Thor: I'm with you on culture. It certainly ca...Thor: I'm with you on culture. It certainly can be difficult to convince people to cycle if they're not used to doing so. The Netherlands has programmes to <a href="http://www.fietsvriendinnen.nl/" rel="nofollow">encourage new Dutch citizens to cycle</a>.<br /><br />You're also right that only the committed will cycle 12 miles in each direction to get to and from work, and that many David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-34517782035457367822011-02-02T23:24:05.623+01:002011-02-02T23:24:05.623+01:00A couple of observations. First I think this discu...A couple of observations. First I think this discussion is failing to acknowledge the role of culture. In places like the Netherlands with excellent cycling infrastructure, there are still fairly large difference in cycling rates between the native born and immigrant populations. The reason Muslim populations in the Netherlands aren't ride there cycles around isn't because the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-49482158070931983362011-02-02T05:06:46.857+01:002011-02-02T05:06:46.857+01:00@Neil:
"most of those increased costs you men...@Neil:<br />"most of those increased costs you mention about Netherlands, probably also apply to the UK compared with USA. i.e. it's the USA that has incredibly cheap motoring, not that NL is particularly expensive."<br /><br />I agree, which I think is part of my point, or maybe I didn't actually make my point. The way I see it, a city needs three factors to achieve high Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-83090537387129687622011-02-01T18:16:03.392+01:002011-02-01T18:16:03.392+01:00David,
As someone living in Canada, I don't a...David,<br /><br />As someone living in Canada, I don't accept winter weather as an excuse for not cycling. I've cycled every day so far this winter to work, shops, church, etc. <br /><br />The weather forecasters are currently saying that tonight we are about to get the worst winter storm for the last three years. High winds, cold temperatures and up to 30 cm of snow. <br /><br />If Kevin Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13186428862833389619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-10781896705456901932011-02-01T14:29:15.828+01:002011-02-01T14:29:15.828+01:00GIF: "In about the first half of the 20th cen...GIF: "In about the first half of the 20th century, or at least the first few decades, there was none-to-little separated infrastructure for bikes inside cities in Amsterdam, Barcelona, Copenhagen (see also here) or Dublin, but the bike vs. car modal split seems equal to or leaning way towards cycling." <br />There was no separate infrastructure for bikes in cities as it was not Frits Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11399632570565541892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-1372731381452035162011-02-01T12:38:09.946+01:002011-02-01T12:38:09.946+01:00@Frits B: I already mentioned that link about earl...@Frits B: I already mentioned that link about early 20th Century Amsterdam. I think the modal share is more relevant than the real number.<br /><br />Also regarding my earlier comment, can anyone steer me towards some data etc. so that I can figure how expensive it would be to drive now if the cost of car was proportionately similar to the cost 100 years ago?Slow Factoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12056080802746709323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-8495999696950787002011-02-01T11:57:40.612+01:002011-02-01T11:57:40.612+01:00Adding to David's arguments: there's a fiv...Adding to David's arguments: there's a five minute compilation "cyclists in Amsterdam (1900-1930)" here: http://www.youtube.com/user/markenlei<br />which shows that cars on the road were mostly trucks and vans, i.e purely utilitarian, and that there were noticeably fewer cyclists about than there are now. And over on Copenhagenize.com there is a post on "Subversive bicycle Frits Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11399632570565541892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-40188075413585059372011-02-01T09:38:57.512+01:002011-02-01T09:38:57.512+01:00Jim: Cycling levels in the UK in the early 1950s w...Jim: Cycling levels in the UK in the early 1950s were actually <a href="http://hembrow.blogspot.com/2011/01/cyclists-special.html" rel="nofollow">very similar to Germany now</a>.David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-7531838336494848972011-02-01T09:10:28.762+01:002011-02-01T09:10:28.762+01:00Cycling did drop sharply in the Netherlands, to ab...Cycling did drop sharply in the Netherlands, to about 40% of its 1952 level by the late 1970s. But even then Dutch people were on average cycling around 2km a day, which was more than the average Briton cycled even in 1952 (when our records began). See chart <a href="http://drawingrings.blogspot.com/2011/01/historic-cycling-rates-in-netherlands.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Cycling rates never Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04831368698879583744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-59587163076548468992011-02-01T09:08:45.810+01:002011-02-01T09:08:45.810+01:00@examinedspoke, most of those increased costs you ...@examinedspoke, most of those increased costs you mention about Netherlands, probably also apply to the UK compared with USA. i.e. it's the USA that has incredibly cheap motoring, not that NL is particularly expensive.Neilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11443493823465136241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-9927426822455175342011-02-01T07:43:03.409+01:002011-02-01T07:43:03.409+01:00Yokota: The price of fuel is far from the only myt...Yokota: The price of fuel is far from the only myth that people hang on to to explain why there's more cycling in the Netherlands than their own country. Several <a href="http://hembrow.blogspot.com/search/label/excuses" rel="nofollow">other of those myths</a> have already been discussed on this blog. You can find a list over on the right hand side.<br /><br />One of the biggest of them is David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-74382732031227267502011-02-01T03:05:09.780+01:002011-02-01T03:05:09.780+01:00The price of Car's have always been dear in Ir...The price of Car's have always been dear in Ireland going back a long way.The actual price is very cheap but by the time all the Tax is totted up it work's out to be one of the dearest Countries for Car's.Also the Insurance costs have to be the Dearest than most Countries.<br /><br />The 2009 period was the worst year for Car Dealers with half the amount of Cars sold because of the l' homme au velohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964877237998191937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-90331290936434986942011-02-01T00:48:32.879+01:002011-02-01T00:48:32.879+01:00You're probably correct that gas prices aren&#...You're probably correct that gas prices aren't the only factor in 'bike friendliness,' but that's a simplistic argument anyway. There are so many other differences than just petrol prices between the nations that a meaningful comparison is impossible. Sorry to say but I don't believe your graph conveys anything meaningful.<br /><br />To really test the hypothesis that Yokota Fritzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04808661100114872654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-83149954463985677132011-01-31T22:13:41.875+01:002011-01-31T22:13:41.875+01:00Meredith: You're quite right that there's ...Meredith: You're quite right that there's a correlation.<br /><br />You can find a graph showing expenditure on bicycle infrastructure vs. modal share for bikes for four different cities (and one country) <a href="http://hembrow.blogspot.com/2010/03/state-of-walking-and-cycling-in-usa.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-91537659357899006492011-01-31T21:03:26.907+01:002011-01-31T21:03:26.907+01:00I'd like to see a similar graph showing invest...I'd like to see a similar graph showing investments in bicycle infrastructure and/or transportation infrastructure in general. <br /><br />Obama claimed in his State of the Union address that European countries invest much more heavily in transportation infrastructure and I *know* they that invest a greater percentage of that in bicycle infrastructure. I bet that there is a correlation to # Meredithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03179690421080955504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-83336302906012164492011-01-31T16:48:59.579+01:002011-01-31T16:48:59.579+01:00@ Jim
I read a blog post somewhere a few weeks ag...@ Jim<br /><br />I read a blog post somewhere a few weeks ago that the car tax system has changed in Ireland recently but I cannot remember where (got the link from a cycle blog).<br /><br />A further comment to the debate about cost of a new car is this table comparing the same new Saab 9-5 in different markets worldwide which makes it clear that Singapore is the most expensive country for a newSirius7dkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08688465574306782024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-74758855381138480282011-01-31T14:44:04.104+01:002011-01-31T14:44:04.104+01:00Ryan: I know that individuals make excuses, but th...Ryan: I know that individuals make excuses, but that's not what I'm getting at. Those go away if the conditions are such that cycling becomes a pleasant thing that people actually want to do.<br /><br />When I talk about <a href="http://hembrow.blogspot.com/search/label/excuses" rel="nofollow">excuses</a>, I really mean the things which even cyclists from other countries use as a reason David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-19741221413811195052011-01-31T13:17:51.191+01:002011-01-31T13:17:51.191+01:00Petrol/Diesel prices are irrelevant unless you are...Petrol/Diesel prices are irrelevant unless you are on a very low income. The increasing numbers of students owning cars shows that costs are not high enough to put most people off. Most people in the UK make the decision to own a car (or a second or third) on the pragmatic basis that public transport costs are so high or routes so inconvenient that a car is the only sensible way to get from a to sheffield cycle chichttp://sheffieldcyclechic.tumblr.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-46690925863815626442011-01-31T13:02:48.208+01:002011-01-31T13:02:48.208+01:00Most will always find an excuse as to why they won...Most will always find an excuse as to why they won't cycle in Canada.<br /><br />I've read and heard on the radio the following:<br />1. Weather. Too cold and snowy in the winter. Too hot and humid in the summer. Other areas it's too rainy.<br /><br />2. Unsafe. Which isn't a completely bogus excuse. Some Canadian cities are downright dangerous to walk in, let alone cycle in.<br Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15589492356827998591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-84915963694180900902011-01-31T12:01:33.421+01:002011-01-31T12:01:33.421+01:00Excellent post, David.
Trying to rebut these excu...Excellent post, David.<br /><br />Trying to rebut these excuses here is like a game of 'whack a mole'... it is never-ending and 'avid' cyclists just don't understand that it is the non-cyclist (ie. 98% of the population who needs convincing) - they're as unhelpful as 'motorists'.<br /><br />Subjective safety (feeling safe) is important. Cycling in Australia, if youPaul Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16828401001732920598noreply@blogger.com