tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post3004994096512176073..comments2024-03-27T12:53:39.298+01:00Comments on A view from the cycle path: Does free car parking make people drive cars ? Certainly not when there is a better alternativeDavid Hembrowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-51433093310875153922016-09-28T20:28:00.667+02:002016-09-28T20:28:00.667+02:00Very informative post. I agree with your thesis th...Very informative post. I agree with your thesis that 'pulling' people into cycling is more effective than 'pushing' them into it. On the other hand, I'm still not convinced that we should dismiss efforts to 'push' people out of cars in concert with this strategy of making great bike connections. I live in Florida, where there is no semblance of town centers or real Verbose Verbiagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17544287328612373481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-55997444701536599672014-09-30T19:08:55.328+02:002014-09-30T19:08:55.328+02:00Scott: You have to find something that the people ...Scott: You have to find something that the people really want. I doubt that will be anything directly to do with "cycling" or "cyclists" as those words are as a red rag to a bull. They don't have resonance with the population at large.<br /><br />In the Netherlands the revolution was driven initially by <a href="http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/search/label/stop%20de%David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-55364303494256029332014-09-30T17:22:49.137+02:002014-09-30T17:22:49.137+02:00Hi David,
One thing I'm still a little confu...Hi David, <br /><br />One thing I'm still a little confused about is that in many UK,USA,Aus, NA towns all of the road space has been given over to cars and motor traffic. If we really want to create a safe and welcoming environment for cycling, surely we have to undo some of that? I understand that if you have built the infrastructure well enough then free parking won't get people Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15929393767361061728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-41242202460292415462014-09-27T22:49:59.159+02:002014-09-27T22:49:59.159+02:00Correction: "over the initial year" shou...Correction: "over the initial year" should be "after the initial years"Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00536286394758244871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-2639926311418294562014-09-27T22:25:29.961+02:002014-09-27T22:25:29.961+02:00@ Dorian Kleiber. A short answer is: they just did...@ Dorian Kleiber. A short answer is: they just did it. There was strong political opposition and from the business community. How it ever happened is a long story. You can find references to that story on this blog and here is a succinct summary on YouTube: <br />http://youtu.be/XuBdf9jYj7o<br />What is most interesting however is that over the initial years, there has never been any serious Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00536286394758244871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-61948047965163349132014-09-25T22:59:09.946+02:002014-09-25T22:59:09.946+02:00Here in Boston we have a big problem with finding ...Here in Boston we have a big problem with finding space for bikes on our narrow streets. In order to create "a more pleasant" biking experience, we'd have to give up on-street car parking in many places - which is a big problem and highly charged politically. How did the dutch deal with this particular issue?<br /><br />thanks.Depressed Architecthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17780165524773732382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-17666192455927836442014-09-20T18:13:26.585+02:002014-09-20T18:13:26.585+02:00The situation here is Toronto is that there simply...The situation here is Toronto is that there simply is not road space for people to drive cars for transportation. And those who try to do so anyway cause massive car traffic congestion. See, for example, from 2009:<br /><br />http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/01/09/12401501-sun.html<br /><br />The only thing that has changed in the last five years is the continuation of the Kevin Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13186428862833389619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-50392744127457813432014-09-19T08:06:18.466+02:002014-09-19T08:06:18.466+02:00"It is the extensive network of quite ordinar..."It is the extensive network of quite ordinary (by Dutch standards) infrastructure which is most important, not the exceptional parts."<br /><br />Unfortunately, what you take for granted is nonexistent in the US. I have not seen a single bicycle path with a separate sidewalk for pedestrians. Nothing that holds a candle to what I experienced in Amsterdam and Rotterdam. And the way most 42appleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09303126467108543097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-77568611808910935582014-09-19T07:15:52.628+02:002014-09-19T07:15:52.628+02:00Goosoid: I do understand your reasoning. Yes, peop...Goosoid: I do understand your reasoning. Yes, people did make the same comments about gears. This happened even way back before derailleurs were invented and when the only gearing system was the Sturmey Archer 3 speed.<br /><br />Please do go ahead and quote me. It's what the blog is for (I appreciate a link).<br /><br />As for the first cycle-path in Auckland, a couple of people have sent meDavid Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-51522118937562271762014-09-19T01:34:04.704+02:002014-09-19T01:34:04.704+02:00David - not offended at all - just curious as alwa...David - not offended at all - just curious as always by any negative comments on ebikes. I love them and really believe they will be a big factor in bringing people back to cycling in topographically challenging places like Auckland or Wellington.<br /><br />I always wonder if people made the same comments when derailleurs came out - that people don't need so many gears and it is not "Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01534158887240745210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-85747776881169289642014-09-18T06:45:06.128+02:002014-09-18T06:45:06.128+02:00Naor: Actually, many countries pay a lot for their...Naor: Actually, many countries pay a lot for their infrastructure and even here in the Netherlands cycling infrastructure is not expensive compared with other types of infrastructure (motorways, airports, railway lines, ports etc.)<br /><br />It is the <a href="http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2012/08/the-importance-of-mundane.html" rel="nofollow">extensive network of quite ordinary (by DutchDavid Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-81213405437022976952014-09-18T01:05:22.492+02:002014-09-18T01:05:22.492+02:00David H, you said above - "I think it's r...David H, you said above - "I think it's rather sad to see someone young and fit riding an e-bike" - why is that? Do you see an ebike as "cheating"?<br /><br />I am 39 and very fit and healthy living in Auckland. I ride an ebike all the time. As you know Auckland is a hilly city and the ebike just takes the hills out of it and makes cycling very pleasant. I arrive, Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01534158887240745210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-85161794080841079822014-09-17T10:17:52.825+02:002014-09-17T10:17:52.825+02:00It *is* the culture though. Not so much that Dutch...It *is* the culture though. Not so much that Dutch people are in love with cycling, but that they are willing to pay much, much more for infrastructure than any country (other than maybe Denmark). And cycling is accepted as a normal part of society. Other countries in Europe have focused more on walking and transit while neglecting investments and promotion of bicycle transportation.<br /><br />I42appleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09303126467108543097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-89152460756096059982014-09-17T08:01:01.994+02:002014-09-17T08:01:01.994+02:00Naor,
You have it almost completely backwards.
A...Naor,<br /><br />You have it almost completely backwards.<br /><br />As it turns out, the most effective way to stop people riving cars (as demonstrated here, in the country with easily the highest rate of non-motizied travel in Europe) is not so much to make driving difficult as to make cycling easy.<br /><br />People do actually want to be able to cycle. The popularity of every closed road David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-3845875388127034292014-09-17T00:47:21.149+02:002014-09-17T00:47:21.149+02:00There is an opportunity cost to land, so even putt...There is an opportunity cost to land, so even putting parking on government-operated land costs something unless there is literally no other possible use for it. That might not be so important in a small town, but in a popular city (like Amsterdam or Toronto), the provision of extra parking is costly. I don't know about where you live, but when I visited Amsterdam, I could see that driving 42appleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09303126467108543097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-82624117364334991012014-09-16T23:59:45.537+02:002014-09-16T23:59:45.537+02:00Naor: Land doesn't inherently cost anything. U...Naor: Land doesn't inherently cost anything. Until the enclosures acts (and similar laws passed around the world) it literally had no tradable value at all.<br /><br />The provision of free parking in this area so successfully "encourages more driving" that we have relatively few car parking spaces for a city this size, yet the spaces remain empty.<br /><br />It may not fit into David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-7540528154964845842014-09-16T21:41:49.969+02:002014-09-16T21:41:49.969+02:00Parking is never "free of charge." It...Parking is never "free of charge." It's just incorporated into the price of whatever you buy. Companies can provide parking if that feel that it's essential for business. The fact is, free public parking does encourage more driving and providing excess parking takes space and money that could have been used for other purposes (bike lanes, retail, housing, parkspace, etc).<br /><42appleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09303126467108543097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-113303234222187712014-09-15T20:30:16.234+02:002014-09-15T20:30:16.234+02:00Unknown: I understand your concern and the problem...Unknown: I understand your concern and the problem is not unique.<br /><br />Of course motorists (a majority) react badly when cyclists (a minority and <a href="http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/search/label/out-group" rel="nofollow">out-group</a>) try to impose more difficult conditions for parking their cars. What would you expect ?<br /><br />This is exactly the sort of fight that cycle David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-62908430838826094202014-09-15T14:47:20.433+02:002014-09-15T14:47:20.433+02:00In Toronto, the main issues surrounding car parkin...In Toronto, the main issues surrounding car parking aren't related so much to price as to space. Motorists are addicted to free or low-cost on-street parking. They put up huge amounts of resistance whenever cycling advocates propose that a bike lane be built in space currently occupied by on-street motor vehicle parking. The Toronto Parking Authority, which operates on-street parking (as wellUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11835883529127319342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-17704770563912267402014-09-12T07:49:55.818+02:002014-09-12T07:49:55.818+02:00Point well taken about hospital parking. Here in...Point well taken about hospital parking. Here in Toronto, many downtown hospitals provide zero car parking as a public health measure. Toronto’s Medical Officer of Health has found that motorists poison and kill 440 people in Toronto every year. So the medical establishment is trying to discourage car driving. <br /><br />The strategy in the suburbs where hospitals tend to have existing car Kevin Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13186428862833389619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-55488545863347431152014-09-09T22:20:09.467+02:002014-09-09T22:20:09.467+02:00Thanks, by now that's all I wanted to know.
J...Thanks, by now that's all I wanted to know.<br /><br />Just to finish the off topic about e-bikes: it's no surprise that in such flat country like the Netherlands so few young people buy them, but in hilly cities they can be really helpful and indeed - the only option for many people.<br /><br />As for unreliable parts - you're right, I learned the hard way. Now I'm sending back user1https://www.blogger.com/profile/13561134680556205808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-75902403640751782662014-09-09T20:25:22.134+02:002014-09-09T20:25:22.134+02:00"In many cases they were actually modelled on..."In many cases they were actually modelled on American designs."<br /><br />I definitely realize this having spent a day in Rotterdam recently (where car traffic is still just as awful if not worse than most US cities). The difference is, you still put in segregated bike paths throughout most of the city.<br /><br />I'll agree with you that pricing parking is not so much a 42appleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09303126467108543097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-3805086666357775242014-09-09T19:50:33.134+02:002014-09-09T19:50:33.134+02:00Naor: Please take a look at other blog posts showi...Naor: Please take a look at other blog posts showing <a href="http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/search/label/the%20second%20revolution" rel="nofollow">how much car parking and through traffic was removed from the centres of cities here in the Netherlands</a>.<br /><br />Dutch cities in the 1970s were far more similar to what you have now than you might realise. In many cases they were actuallyDavid Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-58994510753262382532014-09-09T19:41:54.266+02:002014-09-09T19:41:54.266+02:00"They'll certainly complain more if it ge..."They'll certainly complain more if it gets more expensive, but it will take extremely high prices to force people to stop driving and instead do something that they find to be dangerous and unpleasant, and this of course impacts harder on those whose wallets are less full."<br />You can't talk about a whole population with respect to pricing. On the margin, charging a small 42appleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09303126467108543097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-46720617816038025232014-09-09T19:25:15.323+02:002014-09-09T19:25:15.323+02:00User1: Yes that's the same place (but truly aw...User1: Yes that's the same place (but truly awful video!). It's not illegal to cycle there, but frowned upon by the owners of the building. A large proportion of people get on their bikes before they reach the door.<br /><br />No-one gives two hoots about e-bikes. They are allowed absolutely <i>everywhere</i> that any other bike is allowed and this causes absolutely no problem whatsoever.David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.com