tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post2441280526916844290..comments2024-02-24T06:21:30.987+01:00Comments on A view from the cycle path: Shared Space in HarenDavid Hembrowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-57408864907199121872014-07-20T17:00:26.606+02:002014-07-20T17:00:26.606+02:00Ivaiovitx: Does segregation make the streets move ...Ivaiovitx: Does segregation make the streets move agreeable, more livable and safer ? Yes of course it does. Just look at <a href="http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2014/04/shared-no-more-assen-city-centre-street.html" rel="nofollow">a street which used to be a shared space but from which motor vehicles have now been excluded</a>. A far more pleasant place to be than <a href="http://David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-63852616632764258172014-07-20T12:08:40.550+02:002014-07-20T12:08:40.550+02:00I think the predominant mood here is "we can ...I think the predominant mood here is "we can have the cake and eat it". What's the alternative? Segregation? Does that make the street more agreeable, more livable, more safe?<br /><br />Traffic IS a problem in all kinds of streets, even in shared spaces. When you have to share a space with bigger bulky things that outnumber you you will always be in pain, but at leat they are not Ivaiovitxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02776210789960003332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-22647459008954978942014-06-19T17:25:27.460+02:002014-06-19T17:25:27.460+02:00I can agree that feeling safe trough `shared space...I can agree that feeling safe trough `shared space` is not good enough. For the case of Haren and Drachten the routes are mainroutes to cross the towns. So the traffic density including trucks and not having the idea being safe anywhere for all kinds of traffic is uncomforable. Especially when there are much obstructions in sight and unclear crossings. <br />Even for cars it`s horrible. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00964671175642225380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-86098616228915214392014-05-08T17:01:32.041+02:002014-05-08T17:01:32.041+02:00Ian, the people who have the greatest problems in ...Ian, the people who have the greatest problems in the shared space of Haren are not those using it as a corridor, whether cycling or in a motor vehicle, but those trying to cross the road. This is a problem not only with Haren but also with other shared spaces, such as <a href="http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2014/04/shared-space-revisited-hype-continues.html" rel="nofollow">an example whichDavid Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-53563647423724783972014-05-08T16:36:16.391+02:002014-05-08T16:36:16.391+02:00Looking at the map showing collisions. The greate...Looking at the map showing collisions. The greatest concentration of collisions is on Vondellaan, where 6 collisions have occurred outside the Police Station.<br /><br />"Shared Space", like "Sustainable Safety" has not claimed to eliminate collisions, but to reduce their severity - by slowing motorised traffic.<br /><br />To point at a map showing that there have been Ian Perry (Cardiff, UK)https://www.blogger.com/profile/12322378621922129943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-16518712557693049462013-02-21T18:37:44.221+01:002013-02-21T18:37:44.221+01:00Robert, unfortunately "Living Street" is...Robert, unfortunately "Living Street" is also used by the Shared Space people to refer to the same idea. It's not shared, and people are too busy running out of the way from motor vehicles to want to live there, but they've already taken all the good names.<br /><br />I propose "Nearly Car-Free". It's a little cumbersome, but it's descriptive. Hopefully this David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-25960873897029254282013-02-21T16:55:48.186+01:002013-02-21T16:55:48.186+01:00I've been following links and playing with the...I've been following links and playing with the language switch on Wikipedia. It seems the term we want is:<br /><br />English: Living Street<br />Dutch: Erf<br />German: Verkehrsberuhigter Bereich<br /><br />It even has a tolerably consistent road sign. How does that sound to you?<br /><br />My only criticism is that a market place isn't really a street, but I I can live with that.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07251409182403605985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-44218784248401144542013-02-20T17:58:55.340+01:002013-02-20T17:58:55.340+01:00Robert, there's not really an accepted term fo...Robert, there's not really an accepted term for such a centre in English. Perhaps I should invent one (in my next blog post). The Dutch might refer to it as <a href="http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoluwte" rel="nofollow">autoluwte</a>. i.e. "low cars". I tend to refer to the general principle with regard to cycling as <a href="http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/search/label/David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-29884021277903076022013-02-20T16:44:42.635+01:002013-02-20T16:44:42.635+01:00So we are in fact in agreement! What you didn...So we are in fact in agreement! What you didn't answer is what is the correct term for a space like Preetz so I can stop using the tainted term "Shared Space". I could coin my own phrase (Market space? Co-operative space?), but if a phrase or word already exists then I would rather use it.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07251409182403605985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-14852040459260309782013-02-20T15:19:43.954+01:002013-02-20T15:19:43.954+01:00Robert, my reaction to Poynton or Haren is much li...Robert, my reaction to Poynton or Haren is much like yours. Get past the new paving styles and what you have in these places is a completely average street layout on which the vulnerable have to keep clear of motor vehicles.<br /><br />"Shared Spaces" are in fact spaces in which "might is right". Nothing is truly shared on streets like this. However, this concept is being soldDavid Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-88173378761776101622013-02-20T14:44:10.088+01:002013-02-20T14:44:10.088+01:00Why do I persist? Because I'm baffled, and I...Why do I persist? Because I'm baffled, and I know I'm not the only one. The junction at Poynton is not a space that is shared. It is largely a conventional junction that has some nice block-work. Similarly the photos shown in your blog article show a conventional high street with some nice block-work. What neither of these are is a space that is shared, because they have large Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07251409182403605985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-26639499033855123462013-02-19T18:34:30.364+01:002013-02-19T18:34:30.364+01:00Robert, I don't understand why you persist wit...Robert, I don't understand why you persist with this. Shared Space is a failed idea. It has been shown repeatedly not to work well, yet its advocates keep trying to claim that every new example is better than every old example.<br /><br />Now whether the new situation at Poynton is better than the old is only half the story. They could well have chosen a better solution than that which they David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-18131016625813741322013-02-19T18:20:26.794+01:002013-02-19T18:20:26.794+01:00Thanks for taking a look. The junction does appe...Thanks for taking a look. The junction does appear to work, though we're not told if it is handling the same traffic throughput. Assuming it is, my impression of why this works is primarily because it consists of two single-lane roundabouts. Together they create a traffic flow that is smoother and has a lower maximum speed. That makes it easier for pedestrians to use what are Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07251409182403605985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-12490047581519103042013-02-19T09:10:08.042+01:002013-02-19T09:10:08.042+01:00Robert, that video (of Poynton) is yet another in ...Robert, that video (of Poynton) is yet another in a long line of people who stand to gain from Shared Space promoting it. There's nothing new there, no reason to expect that it really will work out any better than it has elsewhere.<br /><br />What proponents of Shared Space seem to forget is that traffic lights were invented to solve a problem. The problem was the behaviour of people when David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-55884590830206667412013-02-19T08:14:49.121+01:002013-02-19T08:14:49.121+01:00If you have the time I would appreciate your comme...If you have the time I would appreciate your comments on this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vzDDMzq7d0. It was recently linked to on a cycling forum independently of our conversation.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07251409182403605985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-85329889521134180612013-02-11T16:56:00.447+01:002013-02-11T16:56:00.447+01:00Robert, that's all quite true but with one exc...Robert, that's all quite true but with one exception. There are to the best of my knowledge no new Shared Space schemes in planning. There are some schemes which have adopted the architectural ideas, which is fine, but they're removing through traffic so it's not shared space. No sensible person thinks any longer that it's really a good idea to put cyclists and pedestrians in the David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-32803657131910012292013-02-11T16:35:14.284+01:002013-02-11T16:35:14.284+01:00I agree absolutely that the reason for Preetz town...I agree absolutely that the reason for Preetz town centre being pleasant is the removal of a significant proportion of the motorised traffic. No motorised traffic would be nicer still, but I can see that that wouldn't be practical for various reasons. I wonder if what has happened here is that town planners from outside Holland have looked at Monderman's ideas and concluded that they Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07251409182403605985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-7896682717932671152013-02-07T10:07:35.470+01:002013-02-07T10:07:35.470+01:00Robert, you say it is "shared equally" b...Robert, you say it is "shared equally" but you also say that through traffic is "throttled" and that there is a "smaller flow" because most traffic goes elsewhere.<br /><br />Your streets may well be very pleasant but this sounds like it is a feature of the removal of the motor vehicles. Anywhere is better if you get rid of cars. Even the autobahn would be quite David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-363732258515450292013-02-05T22:31:55.150+01:002013-02-05T22:31:55.150+01:00I probably haven't explained it clearly, but i...I probably haven't explained it clearly, but it is tricky summarising what has been done in Preetz in a blog comment. They haven't completely removed the through traffic, what they've done is throttled motorised traffic so it cannot dominate the shared area. Most traffic goes down Güterstraße and Am altern Amtsgericht, but there's a smaller flow of motorised vehicles Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07251409182403605985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-58748636855164398372013-02-05T19:03:16.368+01:002013-02-05T19:03:16.368+01:00Robert, if they've removed the through traffic...Robert, if they've removed the through traffic then it's not really an example of shared space. Instead you have an example of <a href="http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/search/label/unravelling" rel="nofollow">unravelling of the routes taken by cyclists and motorists</a> to reduce the frequency of conflict between the modes.<br />David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-18499873827523967942013-02-05T18:40:39.130+01:002013-02-05T18:40:39.130+01:00Shared space is neither the right solution every t...Shared space is neither the right solution every time, nor will it work if badly designed, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work. There is a shared space in Preetz in North Germany that I have used many times both as a cyclist and a pedestrian. However, the local authority did a lot more than just removing the kerbs on (what was) a through-route. To reduce the traffic in the area Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07251409182403605985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-65847597153105087832011-04-04T02:32:56.378+02:002011-04-04T02:32:56.378+02:00David, I know you put a lot of emphasis in this bl...David, I know you put a lot of emphasis in this blog on the importance of "subjective safety", so your criticisms of shared space make perfect space. One of the basic principles of shared space, as far as I understand it, however, is that the sense of danger, of uncertainty, is what makes people pay attention to their surroundings and engage with each other in a courteous way. Nicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-73052594051392859782011-01-30T09:13:30.037+01:002011-01-30T09:13:30.037+01:00Councillors in Leighton Buzzard where I live in th...Councillors in Leighton Buzzard where I live in the UK have suddenly become very enthusiastic about shared space for our High St. A very wide old fashioned place currently largely given over to car parking except on Market days when cars are banned.<br /><br />I'm not at all sure it'll work or is even a good idea. I'd much rather ban cars altogether.<br /><br />I'm trying to Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-40144083435075110292010-09-15T21:46:45.090+02:002010-09-15T21:46:45.090+02:00Haren is often considered to be a good example. In...Haren is often considered to be a good example. In fact, here's <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plgcFjCJJPA" rel="nofollow">a video of Hans Monderman himself</a> telling everyone how good it is in Haren.<br /><br />Haren is actually pretty bad to cycle through, even if you avoid the Shared Space. Even drivers don't like it, and there's rat-running through the back streets (theDavid Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3102538965694240940.post-44434761017853451752010-09-15T21:24:08.929+02:002010-09-15T21:24:08.929+02:00I agree with all your comments.
However, Shared Sp...I agree with all your comments.<br />However, Shared Space requires a lot of attention in the design stage, which has clearly not been done. Proper application of Shared Space does not mean to just remove all distinction between road surfaces and just making it a big undistinguised pool...<br /><br />The examples you show of Haren are incredibly poorly designed. They actually cater for the car, Tom Bosschaerthttp://www.except.nlnoreply@blogger.com